@VeRtiOs I've considered it before, but still kind of sceptical. Do you know where they're holding the next one?
@Baravis May I ask what makes you kind of skeptical?
@VeRtiOs Yeah totally; Two things, I think: Mike’s “we get real, FAST” comment, and a fear of organized religious groups. I think it would be amazing to meet and learn from Hillary McBride. I think it’s just some 6’ishness. Ojai is probably too far for me this year, unfortunately. :/
@Baravis Thanks for sharing your hesitations! The idea of intensity could certainly make those hesitations tangible. I would not have thought this to be one the sect of "organized religious groups" however, could you speak a little more to that?
Hilary would be such an amazing teacher, I would love an opportunity to do...anything with her honestly haha
true, the distance is real barrier, I'm not sure I can swing it.
@VeRtiOs And thanks for the question! I’m no stranger to intensity, nor the subject of kin—emotion as a male in our society. I embrace that quite a bit, so part of my hesitation is: what would I gain? I think the weekend would probably look like 70% affirmation and 30% challenge.
Given my own baggage (organized religious groups) and where I’m at now, I fear it might be more than I could handle in an integrating fashion.
@VeRtiOs I should say that I recognize that my own projection of gain from the weekend could be entirely incorrect, and even then it would be worthwhile, I think. Anyway, re: organized groups I think I fear identifying with a group that has... hm... decided to identify in a given way. It’s an alluring tendency that we have as mammals, and I’ve been a part of some incredibly toxic movements, so I’m hesitant to fall in love with a specific group. Does that answer your question?
@Baravis HMMM. Oh yeah, I feel that deeply. I admire your thoughtfulness in where to engage, as you say, we have that tendency for sure and it takes real courage to know when and how to say no to that.
I think the part I'm having a little trouble understanding, (and speaking from my experience) is I don't sense the liturgists to be identifying of anything of a religious group, you know? I've experienced them to be creating an open unique space, and i sense...
@Baravis ....that the kin retreat would seek to have the same, if not very similar space. I totally get the hesitation though haha I feel I'm in and out of a rejection reflex to abide by any labels. That being said, having Hilary be there to facilitate I think could be a huge space shifter effect. I've been to other men's retreat's that are full men, evangelical; and have been quite toxic looking back. I still would approach such a space with mindfulness, grace and intrigue.
@Baravis and sorry for all the questions! I truly wish to understand with sincerity by holding our experiences in a good way. I hope my questions and posture has not felt triggering or demeaning in any way of your experience and perspective. Love listening. 🙂
@VeRtiOs It’s all good! Thanks for being inquisitive instead of judging—it’s a helpful posture. I haven’t felt triggered for a second, and I can sense how you’re approaching this with compassion. You set a good example!
So I think that you’re right about how a Kin retreat would have a set of leaders I’d want to open to. The hesitancy I expressed has more to do with my not wanting to be inside a church culture; getting close to that usually -does- trigger me.
@VeRtiOs So I’m pretty open in thought with the Christian label, and discussion about it, to a point. I can talk about the culture, I can truly open to the people who profess, but I still have a protective reflex that pops up when I think about assuming the label. When people talk about Christ or Christian things I look for the value in what they mean, and there’s translation that happens in my head. “They’re talking about belonging” or “this is how they access the non-dual”
@VeRtiOs I basically find the value it has for them and approach it that way. It’s kind of a sterilization technique. That label, whatever it is or however it’s defined, isn’t my natural milieux anymore. I’ve moved on, in part for my own safety, and approach religious things skeptically until I can trust the source.
@VeRtiOs Now I trust the liturgist crew, but I don’t have the same longing to be in a church as many of them? So that’s sort of where the line is for me. I’m careful around that line. Physically meeting with people from the Liturgists is a thing I’m curious and open to, but am exceptionally cautious about.
@VeRtiOs So I think Mike’s words -would- be a challenge! And being honest about it, that -does- scare me! I’ve been wrestling with what both toxic masculinity and racism mean in a Canadian context (I live in Calgary, Alberta) for a long time.
@VeRtiOs So I approach those things with courage, but there’s a large amount of confusion when those concepts hit my social context. Some of the problems in the States have, what seems to me, a different expression. So liturgists talk about these topics fits maybe 80%? How power dynamics work doesn’t change; for example in my area the issues are color blindness, white population dominance, and geographical segregation, to name a few.
@VeRtiOs But try and talk about this with anyone but POC/visible-minorities and people truly believe it’s not as much of an issue up here. What I’m trying to say is that I’m immersed in a prevailing cultural narrative that makes it difficult to engage openly about this stuff. In part I’m asking “what happens if I get all woke and come back here, what happens to me socially?” which seems sorta gross, but I’m just being open about it for discussion purposes.
@VeRtiOs I think I’m talking about integration. There’s a speed I can go at based on a balance of my own personal strength and the fine details of the cultural climate I’m a part of here, and I sense a difference in fit between solutions to these problems used in other parts of North America. I’m only talking about my own perception here though, so I by no means hold this to be definitive.
@Baravis hmm, I hear that for sure. I would anticipate the subject matter to be not overly new or revolutionary, nevertheless the opportunity to connect with men in a profound way over these matters seems worth the cost to me, especially because I see it as important and would be keen to integrate things like it into a broader Canadian context. I think Mike's comment would incite some challenge, or seems like it would.
@mike perhaps you could shed some text?
@VeRtiOs I would do something like this much, much closer to home. Going to Cali is just not a reality for me.
@mattwiebe I agree! I've been pestering them about coming to the northern territory more often, I spoke with Mike when he was in Edmonton about a Liturgists gathering in Canada, and one in Vancouver is on their radar. Not a Kin, but a presence nonetheless.
@VeRtiOs nice! Vancouver is at least a direct flight for many (including me from Winnipeg) so it would improve the likelihood of me going. I already travel with work a fair bit so anything I might go to needs to be easy like that.
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